But when that which is perfect is come.
When things done in part are done away with? Was it the Canon of scripture?
1 Corinthians 13:9-12 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. KJV (To be know in the resurrection) (If you notice we have always done this. /that is prophesy in part/ Our prophecies have failed, tougnes have ceased because we don't want to do it any more. We act like we don't need to pray in the Spirit any more/no wonder!! And not because God took them away but we took them away. Some leaders will stop tounges even if there is an interetation. So The Spirit is grieved!
Please notice the 8th verse
1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; ( Be fulfilled, where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. NIV ( No Mention Of wisdom?) (Ask your teachers when will they be stilled?) When they the so called clergy stop people from doing it, that when!!
(I say as long as souls can be saved, no gift of the Spirit will be done away with!! (God is not an Indian giver.) What you need to perfect you with, god has given us these tools and they are all these gifts not just part of them. He is not saying I am going to take away two of them and just let you have Pastors or Elders to perfect you. If it wasn't for the new birth we couldn't even see the kingdom of God.
Note> Zephaniah 3:9 This is in the Old testament revealed in the new. For then (when?) will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. (You see here is a prophecy to come after Zephainah 3:9, has it come yet? It will take a long time for this to happen. God confounded mans language at the tower of balel, now he wants to give us a pure one. (when?) When that which is perfect is come, thats when. (Wow) Zechariah 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Why would god want to devour the Kingdoms of this world. The truth is because there is to be only one King and one Lord over all the earth. This is going to take some time , so Jesus started the Kingdom when he shed his blood at calvary. He then gave it to the little flock two thousand years ago. He has never taken away one gift from the church. But some seem to think that tongues and prophecy have failed already after he gave them about 2000 AD. If they have failed in your gatherings It's because you dont teach it. The canon of the Bible has nothing to do with it.
Even the whole nature of earth waits for the perfect to come.
Romans:8:18 I consider that our present sufferings (the cup that Jesus drink) are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. (When?) 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (When?)
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. NIV
1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. (What happened to meeting like this?) 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
Ever see a gathering like this? No the church has to many hirlings in it. The parables declares it. ("How did they get there read Jude") The context here in (1 Corinthians 13:8) is not the failing of something or saying it will not be given to his people anymore at a certain time, but that which will not fail is.> (LOVE) Don't go over board and say tongues and prophecy have failed already. They will be here as long as it takes us to reach perfection. They will do their work in every born again Christian till Jesus comes again. (Oh what Perfection then!!) Perfection was not at the so called canon of the Bible. The Bible is not this perfection.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;(When the perfect is come, right.) whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. KJV When? (You learn and you forget. "Right" Get as old as I am and you will see. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. As long as you have the Testmoney of Jesus You will have the Spirit of prophecy. Do you know he rose from the dead? I don't understand why people are afraid of tongues and prophecy. Maybe they are ashamed of Jesus. They say, "Don't do that in my church"!!! Well it is their church then not the Lords. I would love to see some of the power in it.
Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, NKJV ( Sounds like God is going to take over the whole world.) Amen?
Do some prophecy fail? Yes. This one will not!!
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Better get the testimony of Jesus.
2 Kings 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amos came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. ? Can we change Gods mind about a prophecy.
A prophecy that Isaiah spoke for Hezekiah failed or didn't come to pass because Hezekiah prayed and fifteen years was added to his life. Isaiah 38:1-6 Hezekiah changed Gods mind ABOUT a prophecy from Isaiah the son of Amos.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Question here?, why was this a fellow servant and not Jesus himself, " Because Jesus was in Heaven and will be there until the restitution of all things.
Act 3:17" Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you even Jesus. 21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore (restitution KJV) everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. NIV
When That Which is Perfect is Come? "Question"? Is this the Canon of scripture?
This is a reply on the subject of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 where the doctrine that tongues and prophecy have ceased or failed to be in the body of Christ or not on the earth today. Because it says "that which is perfect is come" Some People say ("that which is perfect"= is the>>> canon of scriptures.) (I don't believe this is true.) (But go and learn what that means.) If Paul intended it to be figurative, what would the Temple of God represent in his day till he removes him? In another of his letters, Paul speaks of the body of a believer being the Temple of God because the Holy Spirit dwells within it. (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 6:19). Similar references in the Gospels refer to an individual (cf. Matt. 26:61; 27:40; Mark 14:58; 15:29; John 2:19-21). However, the church as a whole is called the Temple of God (2 Cor. 6:16), and also the House of God.
1 Cor 13:8- Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; It is interesting to note that people claim that the perfect mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is the completion of the Bible, and yet they refuse to obey the Bible and prove such a theory by two or three plain Scriptures! God does not waste His time mentioning things and not giving confirmation through His word that any given doctrine is true. That alone is reason enough to reject the doctrine that tongues have ceased! If you believe that tongues have ceased you must be putting your trust in man, because the Bible never says they have and clearly shows us that they will not cease until the perfect is come.
We cannot say that "speaking in tongues is the evidence for a person's salvation. "(The fruits, so on. Gal. 5:22-23 are more of an evidence than tongues.) The fruit of the spirit does not save us it is the Grace of God by faith. There are several purposes of tongues, of which is a "sign" of receiving the Holy Spirit, Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22). As long as there are unbelievers around tongues will be around as a witness to them.
(1 Corinthians 14:2) For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries It is a means to pray to God:
A sign for the unbeliever? Even Peter a believer needed a sign. Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision (Jews) which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. (Did Peter need a sign?) Yes he did and God gave him one. This was not their own language ,but the same gift all the one hundred and twenty Jews received at Pentecost.
Question? Is it clear from 1 Cor. 13:8-12 that "Sign and Revelatory" gifts were only given to the Apostles and they would cease upon completion of the canon of scripture? (Also do you know who canonized your Bible??) Do all you Protestants know who authorized your bible? Look at that verse again.1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. ( What is he saying?, >><<
1 Cor 13: 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Question Has the perfect come yet. NO!! We know him after the Spirit!!
1 Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaks unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 5 "I would that ye all spake with tongues," but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speak to with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (So we know Paul believed it and did it.!!) It is a channel through which messages are given to Christians. (1 Corinthians 14:5,6).
1 Corinthians 14: 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. (Till the last soul is saved and Jesus comes back no gift is done away with.) Those who teach so may find themselfs blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come..
Mark 3;29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. If God offers it to you don't turn it down!! Those who believe in the"canon is that which is perfect" doctrine, simply ignore this scripturally stated purpose of prophecy. The church still needs to be spoken to in edification, exhortation, and comfort.
Jude 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. (THE CHURCH)They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. NIV. Here is a word and is why we have all these tares and bad fish and birds in the Kingdom. Also again Jesus said let them grow together tell the harvest. Most don’t like that verse. So they put you out of the church or their group?. Matthew 13:30
Jude 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, of charity eating with you without the slightest qualm shepherds (Pastors) who feed only themselves. (These men will remain in the church till the end comes, so don't be afraid of them, have some deserment. Which also is a gift. They have been in the church for 2000 years. In other words this is the first phase of the Kingdom is a battle against the good and the evil in the Kingdom. But the next part (same Kingdom) will be Perfect and then he will gather out of the Kingdom all things that offend.(Same Kingdom that Jesus started) When we delete something from the bible like tounges that is a weapon and sign the lord gave the church or any other thing we must be careful that we are not numbered with those that John said not to change the words of this book or the plagues will which are written in this book will be added unto you. They knew not tell the flood came and it took them all away. (Question, Who did it take away? Who on earth would want to be a leader of Gods people? Seeing they will receive the greater judgement.
1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (Did the bringing in of the New Testament (canon) bring us to the point where we can say we are "face-to-face"? Do you still know in part, or do you know Jesus even as you are known? (Yet?) How does the canon of scripture fulfill all of these points? Where does scripture say or even imply that the canon of scripture is the fulfilling of these things? The scripture doesn't. "Only the private interpretations of men do." When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away"We do agree that this isn't exactly talking about Jesus' second coming. Because He already came, and He was already perfect the first time He came! But we were not. The gifts of the Spirit or for the perfection of the Saints. That’s US. However, let's look at the clues that this passage does give us. Let's start with the very first one. 1 Cor 13:8 Charity (Love) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail. Prophesies shall fail. (When?) Well we said it before "when that which is perfect is come," These things aren't done away, until there are no more prophesies to be fulfilled! What is the last prophesy to be fulfilled? Perhaps a thousand years after he comes again. Satan must be bound. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (Notice After Satan was bound!) After the first restitution of all things. Acts 3:21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. NIV
Act 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the "nations." 3 And there shall be no more curse: (?Where?? when?) but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;(No Temple) and his servants shall serve him:.. 4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. (Hearts) (When we see his face!! Some will see his face at the first resurrection. (Thank about no temple in this place. The son of perdition is setting in the temple of God now. Which is in the first phase of the Kingdom.
You know we will have to believe this book of Rev. or else take it out of the Canonized Books.)
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This is not Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. This was a sign and wonder like Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. They all died again.
Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremonger’s, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches>.(Gatherings) I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Notice dogs, sorcerers, whoremonger’s, murderers, idolaters, and those who makes lies are present when the New City is here also.?) That's when all these things/ prophecy, tongues, and knowledge are to fail. And as it specifically says, that is when we shall see Him face to face, as is prophesied. For we are as the sons of Abraham, walking in the steps of our father Abraham by faith till he comes. Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."Question?" Doesn't the fact that the Greek word used for "cease" denotes a process, rather than an event, and the fact that the Greek word for "perfect" is not masculine in gender, but rather neuter, prove that which is perfect is not the coming of Jesus, and that the ceasing of tongues would not be an "event" but a process like the formulating of scriptures? If so what I am writing now is a Process to quicken your minds to study your bible. These facts actually bear out perfectly with what is being told here.1 Cor 3:9 For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (Is Gods building finished?) The foundation had twelve stones with names of the twelve apostles. What about the top of the building? Will your name be the last name on the last stone put in that building?
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, (Paul) as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.(another is> Us until Christ comes again.) But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For no other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning>> Christ and the church.The canon of scripture does not fit the fulfilment of 1 Cor.13 because knowledge and prophesies didn't fail at that point. The coming of Jesus was not the fulfilment due to the wording of 1 Cor.13:8=12 But, "when that which is perfect is come," (second phase) is that city whose builder and maker is God! The bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem! On earth!! come down out of heaven, a city of people. Can you understand this next verse?
Isaiah 65:17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. (To be fulfilled yet.?)> This is to the Israelites who have come back to their land.
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.1 Cor 3:9 For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.This does bear out the scripture which says,1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And we know that he is perfect, and therefore, we, His church, shall then be perfected! This bears out perfectly with the fact, that the Greek word for perfect in 1 Cor. is not a tense for an event, but a process of time. (Remember the times of the Gentiles.) Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, (Why) for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ( In future as a whole body?) Therefore, the argument against present day speaking in tongues is not founded on a proper reading of 1 Corinthians, when it is read in context. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. KJV. Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: Acts 10:45 On the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church.) Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 for the promise (this, which ye now see and hear) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Question? Have the scriptures brought us to a full revelation of God? Or do we still see in part? People who say these gifts have ceased. "It is their private interpretation." It is drawing conclusions from scripture, that isn't stated in scripture, but is contradicted in other scriptures in fact it is contradicted in the very passage we use as it's evidence! 1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face!! The canon of scripture brings no one "face to face" with Christ and God! That is for a prophesy well in the future of the canon of scripture! The scriptures still allow us only to see through a glass darkly. In fact, it isn't the scriptures that were to lead us into all truth, but the Spirit of truth. Rev. 19:10 For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy." If you have the testimony of Jesus you are prophesying.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. (To you and how long??) Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. By saying that we no longer need the gift of prophesy, we would be saying that we no longer need those who speak unto men to edification, exhortation, and comfort.
Matthew19:28 And Jesus said to them, Verily I say unto you, That ye who have followed me, (Now) , in this life of flesh,) in the regeneration (when) the Son of man shall sit down upon his throne of glory. The KING SHALL COME WITH POWER!! ( What a promise for those that follow him to the end.)
John 6:37-40 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Last day is when Matthew 19:28 is fulfilled.) in the regeneration/ Bible study 6:30 Wed.
Dillard Munsell dillmunsell@yahoo.com
